How would you describe the Mary Sue characters and how would you like them?

Maomao is a Mary Sue: smart, knows everything and can even solve cases outside her field of expertise because apparently anything can be linked to medicine, secretly beautiful, the most handsome man in the whole country wants her because she's not like the other girls, her only flaw is her social awkwardness but somehow almost everyone loves her and the few who don't are depicted as bad guys.

On the other hand, Frieren is not a Mary Sue. She's just overpowered, since the only thing she's really good at is magic.

Maomao is a Mary Sue: smart, knows everything and can even solve cases outside her field of expertise because apparently anything can be linked to medicine, secretly beautiful, the most handsome man in the whole country wants her because she's not like the other girls, her only flaw is her social awkwardness but somehow almost everyone loves her and the few who don't are depicted as bad guys.

On the other hand, Frieren is not a Mary Sue. She's just overpowered, since the only thing she's really good at is magic.

"A type of female character who is depicted as unrealistically lacking in flaws or weaknesses." Pretty cut and dry, and yet somehow just another term people misuse when they don't like something. In this case, a female character. I've seen people nitpick things calling a character a "Mary Sue" while ignoring everything they suck ass at. Again, just because they hate the character.

@FanofAction So, if I understand correctly, you reject calling Mary Sues characters who are clearly perfect and invincible, but still have some problems?

@RobertBobert Well yeah. Because if they have any flaws or problems, then by definition, they aren't perfect. Unless my understanding of the word "perfect" is off. I suppose it could depend how big those issues are. Say they're a bit of a picky eater or something insignificant like that. That kinda teeters the line a bit, but not that much. If they had a lot of little flaws though, that'd be something I wouldn't consider a Mary Sue personally. Armor isn't as effective when there's clear weak points in it, even if those points are small.

Not really what I meant when I said I've seen people misuse it though. I mean when they complain about how flawless a character is when they're very clearly struggling in big key moments. You know, in scenarios where a character written to be basically perfect would get through with very little effort. But no, she can do flips good or some shit, so that doesn't matter. Bit of an exaggeration, but still.

@Nirinbo So, you don't like Maomao, if I understand correctly? Or is she like Tatsuya Shiba, a Mary Sue who is surprisingly fun to watch?

@FanofAction Then how would you describe those type of "literally me" characters who are essentially meant to be wish fulfillment and power fantasy for the audience or the author? That is, characters who are invincible in battle, the most intelligent or brilliant in their field of activity, etc., but at the same time have some kind of social and everyday problems to be a very popular self-insert among the audience? For example, roughly speaking, Hachiman from Oregairu and Tomoko from WataMote, who are objective losers, but at the same time gradually fulfill edgy teen's desire to be recognized by normies?

@RobertBobert I don't think I dislike her, but I would like her more if she had some actual flaws and not some "fake flaws". Maybe those "fake flaws" are exactly the issue: I might be fine with more blatant Mary Sues/Gary Stus if you don't try to sell them to me as something they aren't.

@RobertBobert Generally speaking, I would just call any character who was as you said, "invincible in battle" or "the most intelligent or brilliant" simply overpowered. I guess I would translate that to characters who are exceptionally good in other fields as well. To me that's what an op character is; a character that's great in one or a few areas, but can still be greatly lacking in others. So not quite mary sue level. I don't know much about Hachiman or Tomoko, but if they fit the whole "exceeding at in one area, but sucking an another" thing, then that's where I sit on characters like that.

@Nirinbo So you see her as a good character who could have been much better if she was more realistic instead of fulfilling the fantasy of a nerd girl who becomes the center of attention of powerful and popular people because of her skills?

@RobertBobert Yes, that's it. Maybe it's my fault for having the wrong expectations: I really liked the first half of her anime, then there were a few episodes about "cases of the week quickly solved in 5 minutes" and the power fantasy aspect became more evident to me.

Someone around here (@Zefyris) called Shizuna a Mary Sue, so I suppose I quite like them...

On a more serious note, I have to agree with points made by @Nirinbo and @Piromysl - Maomao indeed felt like one, but it wasn't detrimental to the story in any way. Also, a pleasure seeing some Medaka appreciation for once.

@FanofAction Then how would you describe those type of "literally me" characters who are essentially meant to be wish fulfillment and power fantasy for the audience or the author? That is, characters who are invincible in battle, the most intelligent or brilliant in their field of activity, etc., but at the same time have some kind of social and everyday problems to be a very popular self-insert among the audience? For example, roughly speaking, Hachiman from Oregairu and Tomoko from WataMote, who are objective losers, but at the same time gradually fulfill edgy teen's desire to be recognized by normies?

Maomao is a Mary Sue: smart, knows everything and can even solve cases outside her field of expertise because apparently anything can be linked to medicine, secretly beautiful, the most handsome man in the whole country wants her because she's not like the other girls, her only flaw is her social awkwardness but somehow almost everyone loves her and the few who don't are depicted as bad guys.

On the other hand, Frieren is not a Mary Sue. She's just overpowered, since the only thing she's really good at is magic.

@Nirinbo that secret beauty thing is so random... All she had put on was some fake freckles. The excessive make up literally hides way more of her features than her default outlook.

I feel the term just has 0 meaning as it has essentially been used by hateful individuals to LITERALLY ANY FEMALE PROTAGONIST and they do not give male protagonists the same level of scrutiny

@LSSJ_Gaming Really? I don't remember Kirito, Tatsuya Shiba and Lelouch being female protagonists.

@RobertBobert

I'm talking wider usage not just Japanese anime.

@LSSJ_Gaming Well, that doesn't change the point. The biggest Mary Sues are male protagonists and are the embodiment of the fantasies of male audiences. The idea that the term Mary Sue was coined by female character haters is mostly promoted as a lazy defense of characters like Rey. Moreover, a popular female character will most likely avoid such accusations, since simps lower the standards for female characters.

@RobertBobert

The issue is that the term is commonly used by sexists to put down literally any female character even if male characters can get away with the same thing. Instead of actually making any criticisms or trying to go into what they don't like about a character, they just use a term to say "this character bad" and obfuscate why they think that way. Sure some male characters get called out for things, but most don't because when a male character is super powerful and everyone likes they generally see it as "wish fulfillment", but suddenly when a female character is the exact same thing she is "woke Mary Sue". It's just thinly veiled sexism 99% of the time. The term was originally meant to mock certain tropes in fanfic, but has slowly been claimed by outrage bait Youtubers and hateful individuals to put down any woman in fiction while 9 times out of 10 giving male characters with similar traits 0 scrutiny whatsoever

@LSSJ_Gaming OK good. Give me at least three female characters who are unfairly called by such a term. I have already given you three big cases with male characters, but you continue to make general statements without any examples.

@RobertBobert
While not anime examples, I commonly have heard people unfairly throw around accusations of calling She-Hulk, Galadriel, and Carol Danvers that term. These characters aren't the "Flawless" characters everyone makes them out to be and have multiple iterations in their source materials that people just ignore and cherry pick so they can have an easy excuse to hate on female characters. Basic things such as having supportive friends, being strong, having some unique skillsets, or having self-confidence are used against these characters to call them "Mary-Sues", when male characters who have the same things don't. By that same logic why aren't characters like Luke Skywalker, Superman, Agent 47, Iron Man, Yugi Muto, Josuke Higashikata, Goku, and so many other given the same level of scruitny. There is 100% a bias against women when terms like this are applied as it seems when a woman shows these traits that would be seen as "wish fulfillment" with male characters, they get hated on for being too perfect, but if they show any sort of flaw, they also get hated on for being "unlikable" and "annoying". There's very little in between in online discourse these days and its fucking annoying as a woman to see.

@LSSJ_Gaming Um, but all these three characters are outright Mary Sue self-inserts, which has been argued in detail more than once. She-Hulk and Ms Marvel in the MCU version is literally an attempt to create the ideal female superheroes who would dominate the background of any male ones and be the ideal female self-insert. Galadriel from the Rings of Power is literally a feminist power fantasy self insert. Which, in fact, no one seemed to be trying to hide. Trying to compare them to the OP, but at the same time well written male characters seems quite manipulative, especially in the context of the fact that, according to your statement, ALL the female characters are accused of this, but none of the male ones. Or do you think OP = Mary Sue? Could you explain why the male characters you mentioned are Mary Sues? Just because they're OP?

@RobertBobert

You really aren't arguing in good faith and are just giving into culture war bs. I am not even gonna continue because i have no energy left. Watch Pillar of Garbage's She-Hulk video or something about the criticism to the show i just dont got time for this I got more important shit to deal with than arguing with a random guy on the internet for hours on end

@LSSJ_Gaming I just don't want to buy the claim that people hate female characters and consider them all Mary Sues just because a number of really poorly written female characters are widely criticized. I asked you to argue which critical arguments you consider unfair, and also to explain why you consider the male characters you mentioned to be Mary Sues. But you chose to continue making generalized statements and accusations. In turn, I have named you a number of well-known male Mary Sues and if you ask, I can easily explain it.

And no, you must give a reasoned explanation for why you think criticism of a character is unfair and motivated by prejudice. Don't just provide a critical video and expect me to accept it as such without question.

@LSSJ_Gaming I just don't want to buy the claim that people hate female characters and consider them all Mary Sues just because a number of really poorly written female characters are widely criticized. I asked you to argue which critical arguments you consider unfair, and also to explain why you consider the male characters you mentioned to be Mary Sues. But you chose to continue making generalized statements and accusations. In turn, I have named you a number of well-known male Mary Sues and if you ask, I can easily explain it.

And no, you must give a reasoned explanation for why you think criticism of a character is unfair and motivated by prejudice. Don't just provide a critical video and expect me to accept it as such without question.

@RobertBobert

The issue is that people misconstrue these media and say they are poorly written, either because they aren't paying attention or just hate women. You are actively using sexist arguments in your own comment by saying that adding the female superheroes into the MCU is trying to "dominate the male ones" when it's like if you actually watched the video about She-Hulk that argument is debunked. Hiding behind a term like "Mary Sue" just obfuscates misogynistic beleifs as you people let male characters do this stuff, but suddenly when a woman does it it's a problem. Maybe if you actually listened to what women had to say about this shit you'd understand

@SaiteiDaOrette I wouldn't call her a Mary Sue. Starting with the fact that she is not a protagonist or self insert and ending with the fact that she is more or less a well written tragic hero. On the contrary, she is contrasted with the protagonist Takina, who is depicted as an “ordinary performer.”

@RobertBobert
Well written? There are cringe Wattpad fanfics written by dyslexic 12 year olds that have better written characters than Chisato xD

@RobertBobert

I'm talking wider usage not just Japanese anime.

@Nirinbo drug addiction is not a flaw?

characterlessness after all those years of existence is a strong point?